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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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i haven't been on a 707 for a long time

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for the 24th of april 2022 richard

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saunders coming to you from a sunny

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sydney australia

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what's on the show this week what's on

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the show this week homeopathy on trial

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we follow up from a story we carried oh

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some time ago about the center for

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inquiry taking legal action against the

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walmart and cvs pharmacy

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companies for selling what we consider

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to be quackery

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useless products

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homeopathy in their stores

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we're going to see what the latest

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on that story is including a report

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on a court trial which is going on at

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the moment and also new

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news

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center for inquiry against the boiron

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homeopathic company itself now of course

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for a long time we've known that

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homeopathic

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products

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are

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practically useless

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they don't actually do anything because

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they can't do anything

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not in this universe anyway

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so i think you'll find this story to

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kick off the show

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enlightening following that it's the

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australian skeptic's newsletter

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wonderfully read once again by adrian

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hill in canada let's see what's caught

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the attention of the australian skeptics

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in the last week

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after that it's part two of the book of

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tim

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of out of body out of mind

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where we look at uh body dysphoria

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phantom limbs and so on of course this

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is a reading from the skeptic magazine

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then to round off the show

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trove the trove archives we look for

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references in the australian

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digitized history

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to naturopaths

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naturopaths which sort of ties in a

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little bit to the very first story

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of uh homeopathy i think

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now if you hear this episode in time

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i'm trying to put it out as soon as i

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can because at 11 a.m today

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11 a.m today eastern australian time

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sydney time brisbane melbourne time

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how about i think uh we have an online

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talk by none other than susan gerbic and

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she'll be talking for the gold coast

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skeptics up in queensland

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if you hear this uh in time if you're an

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early downloader and i get this out in

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time

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before 11am here on the east coast of

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australia

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uh click the link in the show notes and

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you can watch a free talk by susan

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gerbic all about

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operation

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onion ring and this is about exposing

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medium thomas john

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now just before i go

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running down the stairs to look for

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something to uh to munch on

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if you're planning a long trip today i

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hope the skeptic zone can keep you

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company in the car i know a lot of

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people

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zone while driving along through traffic

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if you're one of those people today

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thank you for listening and i hope the

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skeptic zone makes your driving your

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trip

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more enjoyable

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but now it is time for me to run

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downstairs grab that cup of coffee i

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wonder if there's a donut

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i will ask henrietta the cat and maude

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penny do you have any doughnuts

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yeah she doesn't want to answer that

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while i do that i hope you enjoy the

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skeptic zone

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[Music]

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visit for inquiry

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and

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homeopathy

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in 2020 and even back in 2019 i ran some

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stories regarding homeopathy in 2019 it

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was an interview with nick little from

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the center for inquiry

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and that was on episode number

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553

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now i was chatting to nick about the

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legal action undertaken by the center

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for inquiry against walmart and cvs

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pharmacies for selling homeopathy

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and i'm happy to bring you an update to

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that story

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and i'll quote from a page over at the

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center for inquiry which i'll link to in

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this

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cfi center for inquiry meets walmart and

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cvs in dc court over homeopathy lawsuit

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and this was published on january the

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27th on january 13 the center for

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inquiry reached a major milestone in its

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groundbreaking consumer protection

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lawsuits against retail giants walmart

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and cvs

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for those of you in australia and other

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parts of the world

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cvs is a massive chain of pharmacies in

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fact when i'm in the united states i

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often find myself in a cvs pharmacy for

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one reason or another

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and i have noticed the homeopathy they

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sell

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cfi is suing these mammoth corporations

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over their deceptive sale and marketing

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of homeopathic products under the

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consumer protection laws of the district

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of columbia and on the 13th of january

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cfi legal director nick little presented

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oral arguments on four cases before the

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dc court of appeals

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and

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spent much of their briefing accusing

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the center for inquiry of being obsessed

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with homeopathy and then he says and

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they aren't totally wrong in that

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accusation of obsession

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we are very very determined to ensure

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that this multi-billion dollar a year

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fraud on consumers is stopped we will

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explore every avenue to protect them the

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article goes on to say that walmart and

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cvs meanwhile are very very determined

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to prove that cfi

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has no standing claiming that we

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cfi don't actually count as a consumer

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protection organization

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but that's an argument that falls apart

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under even the slightest scrutiny and it

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goes on to say what cfi does is consumer

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protection whether it is challenging

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psychics to stop acting as grief

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vampires pressing state governments to

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properly regulate charlatans like

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acupuncturists and naturopaths or using

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the dc courts to stop mega retailers

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misrepresenting homeopathy to their

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customers

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and that was another quote from nick

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little

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opposition to pseudoscience isn't a

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philosophical position alone it has a

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purpose fighting quackery is about

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consumer protection and that's what we

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told the court

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now

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what is interesting

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and i found this fascinating is that the

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court proceedings were

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on zoom

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and were recorded and are on youtube i

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will link to this page in this week's

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show notes you can read that roundup for

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yourself and then

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you can click the link since the

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arguments took place over zoom you can

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see it all unfold for yourself that's

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what the page says and indeed i did that

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i clicked the link and i was brought

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into

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or over to the um

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the official court video i imagine and i

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watched with fascination the arguments

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the legal arguments put forward by nick

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little and then the representatives for

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walmart and cvs now what i found was

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fascinating was the defendants the

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attorneys for walmart and cvs

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were putting up these interesting

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arguments that really weren't in my

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humble opinion my non-legal opinion they

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really weren't applicable

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trying to suggest the center for inquiry

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didn't like the fact that maybe two

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products were next to each other

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they talked about butter and margarine

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or milk and almond milk

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but right at the end of the the session

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nicholas little counted with

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i'm paraphrasing here that's not really

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the question and he made the point

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that uh

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what the argument is

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is that homeopathy is not in fact

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medicine or does not in fact work

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you might want to view that proceeding

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for yourself it's most interesting

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but this brings us now to more action

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taken by the center for inquiry

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and in

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february 2020

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in the before times just but before the

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pandemic hit

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i

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a free booklet

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i think i got from a cvs pharmacy or

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another pharmacy from the boyron company

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boyron are a huge manufacturer of

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homeopathic products for the united

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states market i i guess they'd probably

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sell them elsewhere too

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and in that episode i looked at the

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claims and information in the booklet

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which borders on

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farcical

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no it doesn't border on bicycle it it

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travels into farcical country lock stock

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and barrel

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which brings me to the next part of this

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story

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concerning the boiron company and the

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center for inquiry

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which brings me to

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a report on a website i was not familiar

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with before called techy live

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i think it's pronounced techie live i'm

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not really sure

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take i live anyway d e c h i l i v e dot

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i n if you're interested and briefly the

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story says scientific integrity watchdog

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slaps lawsuit on maker of homeopathic

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pills

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a non-profit scientific advocacy group

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sued boy ron last week for deceptively

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marketing its homeopathic products legal

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documents show

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the center for inquiry cfi filed the

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lawsuit against boeron a pennsylvania

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based manufacturer that sells

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homeopathic treatments claiming that the

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company deceives customers about the

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nature and effectiveness of its products

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the complaint alleges that boyron sells

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a plethora of identical treatments that

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consist of sugar pills and powders

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all while claiming that each of the

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products treat a specific illness or

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ailment

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now i thought it would be interesting to

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look at this legal document

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which is online at the pdf is over at

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the center for inquiry

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and it says superior court of the

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district of columbia civil division

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center for inquiry inc

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plaintiff versus boyron inc

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defendant complaint for violations of

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the consumer protection procedures act

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on behalf of itself consumers and the

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general public of the district of

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columbia plaintiff center for inquiry

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brings this action against defendant

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boyron inc

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for the unfair and deceptive trade

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practices it regularly utilizes in the

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marketing and sale of homeopathic

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products

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now i'll just mention some of the points

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00:12:01,829 --> 00:11:58,560
that they point out

288
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defendant repeatedly violated and

289
00:12:08,829 --> 00:12:04,800
continues to operate in violation of the

290
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consumer protection procedures act

291
00:12:14,629 --> 00:12:12,639
cppa through a carefully crafted scheme

292
00:12:18,710 --> 00:12:14,639
of misrepresentation

293
00:12:20,310 --> 00:12:18,720
obfuscation ambiguity innuendos and

294
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falsities

295
00:12:25,829 --> 00:12:23,519
boyron offloads otherwise worthless

296
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products upon the unwitting

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the ill-informed

298
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and the vulnerable

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00:12:34,069 --> 00:12:30,880
upon the investigation of council

300
00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:34,079
information and belief plaintiff alleges

301
00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:37,760
the following in support of its claim

302
00:12:40,949 --> 00:12:39,920
let's look at some of these

303
00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:40,959
one

304
00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:44,320
homeopathy is pseudoscience quackery

305
00:12:47,670 --> 00:12:45,680
faux medicine

306
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:47,680
health fraud

307
00:12:54,069 --> 00:12:51,120
two boy ron is the self-described world

308
00:12:55,269 --> 00:12:54,079
leader in quote homeopathic medicines

309
00:12:56,310 --> 00:12:55,279
end quote

310
00:12:58,230 --> 00:12:56,320
3.

311
00:13:00,629 --> 00:12:58,240
defendant's entire business is based

312
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upon a fiction a centuries-old

313
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confidence scheme long past its shelf

314
00:13:06,389 --> 00:13:03,519
life

315
00:13:09,269 --> 00:13:06,399
homeopathy does not heal

316
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homeopathy does not cure

317
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:10,800
homeopathy is wishful thinking

318
00:13:15,350 --> 00:13:13,680
deceptively packaged and sold for a

319
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:15,360
hefty profit

320
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nothing more

321
00:13:21,910 --> 00:13:19,760
and this next point is quite interesting

322
00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:21,920
equipped with an inventory in excess of

323
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1 000 various items

324
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including toxic plants

325
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animal venom

326
00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:31,440
noxious gases controlled substances

327
00:13:37,590 --> 00:13:34,800
heavy metals radioactive materials

328
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:37,600
bacteria parasites

329
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:39,360
virus particles

330
00:13:44,189 --> 00:13:41,680
excretions

331
00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:44,199
and even the urethral

332
00:13:50,710 --> 00:13:47,680
secretions of persons infected by a

333
00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:50,720
sexually transmitted disease

334
00:13:55,910 --> 00:13:53,040
proponents of homeopathy pedal quote

335
00:13:56,710 --> 00:13:55,920
drugs and quote they claim we'll treat

336
00:13:59,110 --> 00:13:56,720
all

337
00:14:01,110 --> 00:13:59,120
medical conditions

338
00:14:02,790 --> 00:14:01,120
point five defendant recommends and

339
00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:02,800
sells a variety of products each of

340
00:14:07,590 --> 00:14:05,600
which it claims will uniquely and

341
00:14:08,710 --> 00:14:07,600
specifically treat a plethora of

342
00:14:12,389 --> 00:14:08,720
conditions

343
00:14:15,470 --> 00:14:12,399
yet each product is materially identical

344
00:14:17,829 --> 00:14:15,480
in their contents and effects each

345
00:14:20,629 --> 00:14:17,839
indistinguishable but for the promises

346
00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:20,639
boron makes two consumers

347
00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:22,000
and just looking through some of the

348
00:14:27,110 --> 00:14:24,000
other points here point eight

349
00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:27,120
to consumers defendant deceptively holds

350
00:14:32,629 --> 00:14:30,560
out its products as medicine another

351
00:14:34,150 --> 00:14:32,639
point here may be

352
00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:34,160
when we look through some of the points

353
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:35,600
point 10

354
00:14:40,470 --> 00:14:38,320
defendant utilizes carefully crafted

355
00:14:42,550 --> 00:14:40,480
marketing materials and packaging to

356
00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:42,560
convince consumers that boy ron products

357
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:45,120
will treat injuries reduce muscle

358
00:14:48,629 --> 00:14:46,320
stiffness

359
00:14:50,870 --> 00:14:48,639
disappear bruises

360
00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:50,880
massage poor concentration and

361
00:14:56,230 --> 00:14:53,920
irritability due to overwork and even

362
00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:56,240
heal surgical wounds

363
00:15:01,829 --> 00:14:58,800
it convinces consumers to buy its goods

364
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:01,839
at a premium with no intent to deliver

365
00:15:07,269 --> 00:15:05,040
the items as promised 0.11 through its

366
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:07,279
statements acts and omissions through

367
00:15:13,269 --> 00:15:11,600
innuendo and ambiguity defendant dupes

368
00:15:17,110 --> 00:15:13,279
consumers

369
00:15:20,230 --> 00:15:17,120
and that legal document is about

370
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:20,240
five or six or seven or eight pages long

371
00:15:25,350 --> 00:15:22,320
and just scrolling through it now it's

372
00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:25,360
quite interesting because the

373
00:15:28,470 --> 00:15:27,120
document goes on to

374
00:15:31,670 --> 00:15:28,480
show

375
00:15:34,389 --> 00:15:31,680
evidence to back up their uh claims here

376
00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:34,399
in the form of screenshots and package

377
00:15:38,069 --> 00:15:36,800
shots about the uh the products boy run

378
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:38,079
cell

379
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:40,399
including highlighting that uh right on

380
00:15:45,749 --> 00:15:42,720
one of their packages here

381
00:15:48,389 --> 00:15:45,759
they say homeopathic arnica

382
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:48,399
pain reliever

383
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:51,120
and other claims under the banner of

384
00:15:56,949 --> 00:15:54,480
natural safe and effective and another

385
00:15:59,269 --> 00:15:56,959
product here they're selling and this is

386
00:16:01,430 --> 00:15:59,279
pointed out in the document

387
00:16:03,509 --> 00:16:01,440
the claim is reduces duration and

388
00:16:05,749 --> 00:16:03,519
severity of flu symptoms

389
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:05,759
and there are more examples

390
00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:07,680
listed here

391
00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:09,920
i'm going to link to this all these

392
00:16:14,470 --> 00:16:11,600
pages i've mentioned in this week's show

393
00:16:16,069 --> 00:16:14,480
notes and it's something that

394
00:16:18,389 --> 00:16:16,079
i think the skeptical community

395
00:16:19,509 --> 00:16:18,399
worldwide will be paying close attention

396
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:19,519
to

397
00:16:24,069 --> 00:16:22,160
because uh what we've found here in

398
00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:24,079
australia i think

399
00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:25,440
and other places in the world have

400
00:16:29,110 --> 00:16:27,440
discovered this that if you really want

401
00:16:31,110 --> 00:16:29,120
to make changes

402
00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:31,120
then it's the slow path

403
00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:34,320
that normally does the trick of

404
00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:35,600
lengthy

405
00:16:40,710 --> 00:16:38,560
legal procedures red tape

406
00:16:41,530 --> 00:16:40,720
going through the correct channels

407
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:41,540
and so forth

408
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:45,600
[Music]

409
00:16:50,629 --> 00:16:48,959
we look forward to the next developments

410
00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:50,639
in the cases of

411
00:16:54,629 --> 00:16:52,720
the center for inquiry versus

412
00:16:57,829 --> 00:16:54,639
walmart and cvs

413
00:17:01,350 --> 00:16:57,839
and indeed the center for inquiry versus

414
00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:01,360
the boiron homeopathic company

415
00:17:13,429 --> 00:17:10,720
[Music]

416
00:17:15,029 --> 00:17:13,439
hi i'm ben radford co-host of squaring

417
00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:15,039
strange podcast

418
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:17,600
in these trying times as we help each

419
00:17:21,669 --> 00:17:19,679
other out to hold on to hope we want you

420
00:17:23,669 --> 00:17:21,679
to know that we're here for you hey hey

421
00:17:25,029 --> 00:17:23,679
what are you going on about

422
00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:25,039
who's interrupting my heartfelt

423
00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:28,079
promotional copy it's me celestia ward

424
00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:30,160
your co-host

425
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:33,120
really in these trying times that's the

426
00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:34,640
best you can do

427
00:17:37,990 --> 00:17:36,080
well i'm just doing what everyone else

428
00:17:39,029 --> 00:17:38,000
is doing i thought

429
00:17:40,630 --> 00:17:39,039
that's

430
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:40,640
not what we do

431
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:42,640
oh for crying out loud who else is here

432
00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:46,720
pasqual romero your other co-host hey

433
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:49,440
we don't do what everybody else does ben

434
00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:51,039
that's kind of our thing at squaring the

435
00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:53,600
strange yeah we try to approach things a

436
00:17:57,590 --> 00:17:55,360
little differently than your standard

437
00:18:00,070 --> 00:17:57,600
skeptical talky talk show

438
00:18:02,390 --> 00:18:00,080
we do our own thing bringing science

439
00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:02,400
critical thinking and skepticism to bear

440
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:04,000
on issues of the day

441
00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:05,600
we've got a professional skeptical

442
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:08,400
author ben who has decades of experience

443
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:11,120
researching topics for a dozen books and

444
00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:13,760
thousands of articles and a cartoonist

445
00:18:17,270 --> 00:18:15,679
skeptic celestia who knows her stuff

446
00:18:19,430 --> 00:18:17,280
when it comes to facial weirdness and

447
00:18:21,909 --> 00:18:19,440
the psychology of perception and a

448
00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:21,919
badass heavy metal rock star and tech

449
00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:24,160
engineer pascual who brings knowledge of

450
00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:26,080
all things audio plus a bunch of neck

451
00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:27,120
tattoos

452
00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:28,960
squaring the strange explores topics

453
00:18:34,150 --> 00:18:31,200
both mysterious and mundane through a

454
00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:34,160
critical lens monsters panics media

455
00:18:38,310 --> 00:18:35,840
literacy

456
00:18:40,789 --> 00:18:38,320
okay forget the whole trying times promo

457
00:18:46,220 --> 00:18:40,799
idea but we have chupacabras and clown

458
00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:03,190
[Music]

459
00:19:07,270 --> 00:19:05,520
hello everyone it's adrian hill from

460
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:07,280
canada here to read the highlights from

461
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:10,799
the australian skeptics newsletter

462
00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:13,840
this is newsletter number 146.

463
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:15,600
you can subscribe to this newsletter and

464
00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:17,679
get it delivered to your inbox every

465
00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:20,320
other week complete with links to all

466
00:19:30,390 --> 00:19:28,630
but now

467
00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:30,400
let's get to the newsletter and see what

468
00:19:34,140 --> 00:19:32,799
tim endum has lined up for us

469
00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:34,150
hi all says tim

470
00:19:37,270 --> 00:19:35,520
[Music]

471
00:19:39,510 --> 00:19:37,280
it's not surprising that the

472
00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:39,520
conspiracists were out in droves during

473
00:19:43,990 --> 00:19:41,440
the recent floods in queensland and new

474
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:44,000
south wales the ones we've heard from

475
00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:46,240
the usual quote well-informed do your

476
00:19:51,270 --> 00:19:48,880
own research end quote family members

477
00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:51,280
concern cloud seeding designed to

478
00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:53,200
literally drown out dissenting voices

479
00:19:58,150 --> 00:19:55,360
among the alternative lifestylers in the

480
00:20:00,710 --> 00:19:58,160
northern coast of new south wales and

481
00:20:03,350 --> 00:20:00,720
move people into cities where they could

482
00:20:07,110 --> 00:20:03,360
be more closely monitored which is too

483
00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:07,120
bad for other less alternative areas but

484
00:20:11,950 --> 00:20:09,840
apparently they were collateral damage

485
00:20:14,230 --> 00:20:11,960
read on tim

486
00:20:16,740 --> 00:20:14,240
[Music]

487
00:20:17,909 --> 00:20:16,750
conspiracy theories on floods

488
00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:17,919
[Music]

489
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:20,480
flood victims from australia's northeast

490
00:20:25,909 --> 00:20:23,440
coast who in droves now self-identify as

491
00:20:28,149 --> 00:20:25,919
climate refugees have converged on a

492
00:20:30,390 --> 00:20:28,159
grab bag of facebook groups and

493
00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:30,400
community message boards to condemn some

494
00:20:36,310 --> 00:20:33,120
byron bay locals who have taken to

495
00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:36,320
calling recent flooding a man-made

496
00:20:41,909 --> 00:20:39,280
weather event that definitely isn't

497
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:41,919
linked to climate change

498
00:20:48,630 --> 00:20:44,559
not sure how that works

499
00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:48,640
homeopathy for covet 19 randomized trial

500
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:51,280
shows it does not work who would have

501
00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:56,149
edzard ernst reports on a recent trial

502
00:21:00,789 --> 00:20:58,880
on homeopathy the authors of the report

503
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:00,799
concluded that the results showed that

504
00:21:06,789 --> 00:21:04,559
natrum muriaticum lm2 was safe to use

505
00:21:08,630 --> 00:21:06,799
for coven 19 but there was no

506
00:21:11,270 --> 00:21:08,640
statistically significant difference in

507
00:21:14,789 --> 00:21:11,280
the primary endpoints of natrum

508
00:21:18,310 --> 00:21:14,799
muriaticum lm2 and placebo for mild

509
00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:18,320
covet 19 cases the full paper titled

510
00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:22,000
homeopathy for coven 19 in primary care

511
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:23,360
a randomized double-blind

512
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:25,760
placebo-controlled trial coveted simile

513
00:21:32,549 --> 00:21:30,000
study end quote is available for free

514
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:32,559
conspiracy theories about the bermuda

515
00:21:37,029 --> 00:21:34,720
triangle

516
00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:37,039
popular mechanics does two bermuda

517
00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:39,520
triangle claims what it did to 911

518
00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:42,240
conspiracies takes them apart looks at

519
00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:45,600
them closely and throws most of them out

520
00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:47,760
the window with more hyperlinks per

521
00:21:53,029 --> 00:21:49,360
square inch than you can find on

522
00:21:59,110 --> 00:21:56,870
how ghosts became a national obsession

523
00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:59,120
a long and serious look at the uk

524
00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:01,200
phenomenon of increased interest in the

525
00:22:06,070 --> 00:22:03,760
paranormal and specifically ghosts and

526
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:06,080
ufos with comment by skeptical

527
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:09,120
researchers and paranormal investigators

528
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:11,600
one of the latter quote i think culture

529
00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:13,280
is reflecting back the horror of our

530
00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:15,440
society the more extreme and horrific

531
00:22:20,470 --> 00:22:17,760
society is and lord knows with trump

532
00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:20,480
brexit coronavirus and ukraine it has

533
00:22:25,110 --> 00:22:22,559
been about as extreme as it gets within

534
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:25,120
most of our lifetimes we seek ever more

535
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:27,760
extreme forms of entertainment i noticed

536
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:30,240
from the audiences in my podcast people

537
00:22:34,700 --> 00:22:33,280
are saying we want to feel that hit of

538
00:22:38,870 --> 00:22:34,710
fear end quote

539
00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:38,880
[Music]

540
00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:43,120
how ghosts became big business

541
00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:45,840
the daily mail has a long and considered

542
00:22:51,270 --> 00:22:48,480
article will wonders never cease on

543
00:22:53,350 --> 00:22:51,280
professional ghost hunters some use what

544
00:22:55,830 --> 00:22:53,360
they say are scientific approaches but

545
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:55,840
they still want tour guides to show

546
00:22:59,750 --> 00:22:57,280
passion

547
00:23:02,630 --> 00:22:59,760
one hunter commented on the commercial

548
00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:02,640
tours quote it's unscientific profit

549
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:04,480
motivated and there's an incentive to

550
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:06,240
make sure something happens so people

551
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:08,640
come back i'm not saying it's fake but

552
00:23:12,630 --> 00:23:10,720
some give members of the public pieces

553
00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:12,640
of kit without training them how to use

554
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:14,720
them properly just because something

555
00:23:19,510 --> 00:23:17,039
lights up or moves doesn't necessarily

556
00:23:20,990 --> 00:23:19,520
mean anything supernatural is going on

557
00:23:23,270 --> 00:23:21,000
end quote

558
00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:23,280
[Music]

559
00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:26,320
the march 2022 issue of the skeptic is

560
00:23:30,310 --> 00:23:28,320
out and it features a look at the ticks

561
00:23:32,789 --> 00:23:30,320
and tactics of high-level athletes to

562
00:23:34,710 --> 00:23:32,799
improve their performance a combination

563
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:34,720
of superstition and pseudoscience that

564
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:37,280
is nonetheless very influential on fans

565
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:39,120
and would-be champions

566
00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:41,279
the issue also features articles on what

567
00:23:47,590 --> 00:23:44,960
exactly is agenda 21 what do your own

568
00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:47,600
research entails how a well-known critic

569
00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:50,480
of parapsychology had a change of heart

570
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:52,640
sort of and much more

571
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:54,960
and if you haven't subscribed yet now is

572
00:23:58,870 --> 00:23:56,720
the time to do so

573
00:24:01,029 --> 00:23:58,880
contact the editor if you're not sure if

574
00:24:02,230 --> 00:24:01,039
your existing subscription needs

575
00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:02,240
renewing

576
00:24:07,110 --> 00:24:04,880
to subscribe to the skeptic go to our

577
00:24:09,909 --> 00:24:07,120
shop to sign up for a hard copy or

578
00:24:11,669 --> 00:24:09,919
digital edition or both the digital is

579
00:24:13,909 --> 00:24:11,679
offered free to those who take up the

580
00:24:19,909 --> 00:24:13,919
hard copy version just head for

581
00:24:25,510 --> 00:24:22,870
oh yay statistics it's the silliest

582
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:25,520
statistic of the week

583
00:24:32,549 --> 00:24:29,760
ufos leave women pregnant oh good grief

584
00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:32,559
ufos had sexual encounters with humans

585
00:24:36,230 --> 00:24:34,320
and even left one woman pregnant

586
00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:36,240
witnesses have alleged

587
00:24:40,549 --> 00:24:38,480
or so the report goes following the

588
00:24:42,630 --> 00:24:40,559
release of pentagon documents obtained

589
00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:42,640
by the sun uk from the defense

590
00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:46,080
intelligence agency or dia as part of a

591
00:24:51,029 --> 00:24:48,640
freedom of information request but

592
00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:51,039
investigators at snopes asked if the

593
00:24:55,750 --> 00:24:53,200
publicly available evidence proving

594
00:24:58,230 --> 00:24:55,760
these effects were the result of ufo

595
00:25:00,390 --> 00:24:58,240
encounters it says that in the

596
00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:00,400
unclassified file listing

597
00:25:06,070 --> 00:25:03,440
quote ufo related human physiological

598
00:25:09,190 --> 00:25:06,080
effects unquote the reported effects

599
00:25:11,750 --> 00:25:09,200
included not only burns skin sores and

600
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:11,760
significant odors but also sexual

601
00:25:16,789 --> 00:25:14,559
encounters the report listed at least

602
00:25:19,350 --> 00:25:16,799
one encounter that allegedly resulted in

603
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:19,360
an unaccounted for pregnancy

604
00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:22,000
trouble is it's one pregnancy listed

605
00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:24,880
among many other supposed effects but

606
00:25:29,269 --> 00:25:27,600
that nonetheless was the key item of

607
00:25:31,430 --> 00:25:29,279
media coverage

608
00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:31,440
and the evidence for it

609
00:25:34,310 --> 00:25:32,400
none

610
00:25:37,190 --> 00:25:34,320
just a claim made by someone who said

611
00:25:38,549 --> 00:25:37,200
they got pregnant thanks to aliens

612
00:25:40,710 --> 00:25:38,559
we'll leave it to you to picture the

613
00:25:42,020 --> 00:25:40,720
scenario when the woman involved made

614
00:25:43,269 --> 00:25:42,030
her announcement

615
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:43,279
[Laughter]

616
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:44,799
oh boy

617
00:25:51,510 --> 00:25:48,960
oh fly me to the moon in an alien

618
00:25:56,370 --> 00:25:51,520
spacecraft until next time this is

619
00:25:56,380 --> 00:26:07,750
[Music]

620
00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:09,669
g'day this is dr karl karl krishninsky

621
00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:11,120
proud to be a skeptic and you can find

622
00:26:18,390 --> 00:26:13,520
out more about me at drcarl.com and get

623
00:26:30,789 --> 00:26:26,070
[Music]

624
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:30,799
and now

625
00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:32,890
a reading from the book of tim

626
00:26:38,410 --> 00:26:35,600
[Music]

627
00:26:43,750 --> 00:26:38,420
with tim mendez

628
00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:44,630
hi

629
00:26:48,630 --> 00:26:46,320
my name is tim mendem i'm the executive

630
00:26:51,269 --> 00:26:48,640
officer of australian skeptics inc and

631
00:26:53,590 --> 00:26:51,279
editor of our magazine the skeptic which

632
00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:53,600
you can read and download most of the

633
00:26:58,870 --> 00:26:55,840
issues for free from our website

634
00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:00,870
today i'm reading part two

635
00:27:05,830 --> 00:27:03,200
of an article by marcelo costa called

636
00:27:08,630 --> 00:27:05,840
out of body out of mind on the way the

637
00:27:10,549 --> 00:27:08,640
mind manipulates our view of ourselves

638
00:27:13,269 --> 00:27:10,559
this was published in

639
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:13,279
the march 2010 issue of the skeptic

640
00:27:18,389 --> 00:27:16,640
magazine which was volume 30 number one

641
00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:18,399
you can download that whole issue off

642
00:27:22,950 --> 00:27:21,279
our website as i mentioned

643
00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:22,960
the part one covered uh sort of strange

644
00:27:26,789 --> 00:27:25,120
phenomena that our our mind can

645
00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:26,799
influence us to believe that we have

646
00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:29,600
phantom limbs or no limbs or that we are

647
00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:31,600
dead or various other things so it can

648
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:32,960
be quite scary at times but this one

649
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:35,039
looks at um our awareness of being in

650
00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:37,120
the world here and now

651
00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:38,720
when everything works well and we feel

652
00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:40,960
that our body fits like a glove we then

653
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:43,440
feel part of a surrounding world

654
00:27:47,350 --> 00:27:45,919
we feel that we are here and now

655
00:27:49,029 --> 00:27:47,360
this feeling also involves an

656
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:49,039
extraordinary integration of external

657
00:27:53,590 --> 00:27:51,520
sensory experiences combined together in

658
00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:53,600
the brain to give us the sense of being

659
00:27:58,870 --> 00:27:55,840
in a real world but what happens if the

660
00:28:00,230 --> 00:27:58,880
brain makes up some sensory experiences

661
00:28:02,710 --> 00:28:00,240
these are called hallucinations and

662
00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:02,720
hallucinations can be defined as any

663
00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:05,200
perceptual experience in the absence of

664
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:07,360
external stimuli and must be

665
00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:09,600
sufficiently compelling to be considered

666
00:28:12,789 --> 00:28:11,360
a true perception

667
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:12,799
there are many different conditions that

668
00:28:16,870 --> 00:28:15,120
can create hallucinations including

669
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:16,880
things like psychedelic drugs such as

670
00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:18,000
lsd

671
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:22,720
activates the neurochemical processes in

672
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:25,039
the brain involved in the building of a

673
00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:27,120
realistic experience

674
00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:28,960
it stimulates the action of the

675
00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:32,480
endogenous transmitter serotonin

676
00:28:37,510 --> 00:28:34,960
its powerful action not only produces

677
00:28:39,350 --> 00:28:37,520
rich visual hallucinations but can also

678
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:39,360
disrupt the very fabric of the

679
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:45,269
the ease with which our experience of

680
00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:47,360
reality can be disrupted by merely

681
00:28:51,269 --> 00:28:49,760
changing a tiny chemical in the brain

682
00:28:53,029 --> 00:28:51,279
suggests that the normal functioning of

683
00:28:55,830 --> 00:28:53,039
the brain nerve cells

684
00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:55,840
weaves the very experience of reality

685
00:28:59,909 --> 00:28:58,000
usually in a way that is consistent with

686
00:29:01,990 --> 00:28:59,919
what is out there

687
00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:02,000
disruption of such processes is likely

688
00:29:06,950 --> 00:29:04,720
to result in abnormal experiences

689
00:29:09,909 --> 00:29:06,960
such as happens in schizophrenia and

690
00:29:13,510 --> 00:29:09,919
other mental disorders or as a result of

691
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:13,520
other psychotropic drugs

692
00:29:16,789 --> 00:29:15,120
lesions of some parts of the right

693
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:16,799
parietal cortex caused by some

694
00:29:20,870 --> 00:29:18,720
neurological disorders

695
00:29:22,950 --> 00:29:20,880
lead to strange behavior

696
00:29:25,029 --> 00:29:22,960
patients do not appear to be aware of

697
00:29:27,669 --> 00:29:25,039
any object in the external world on the

698
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:27,679
left of their visual field despite not

699
00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:29,200
being blind

700
00:29:33,909 --> 00:29:31,440
this spatial neglect discovered by

701
00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:33,919
italian neurologists a few decades ago

702
00:29:37,669 --> 00:29:35,520
open a new perspective in the

703
00:29:40,470 --> 00:29:37,679
understanding that it is the brain that

704
00:29:43,510 --> 00:29:40,480
constructs in a very crafty way our

705
00:29:45,430 --> 00:29:43,520
experience of what is out there

706
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:45,440
what happens if there is some

707
00:29:50,310 --> 00:29:47,200
cross wiring between the different

708
00:29:52,470 --> 00:29:50,320
sensory components the result is a

709
00:29:54,470 --> 00:29:52,480
mixing up of experiences with sound

710
00:29:57,190 --> 00:29:54,480
being felt like colors and perhaps vice

711
00:29:59,110 --> 00:29:57,200
versa shapes and colors felt as sound

712
00:30:01,510 --> 00:29:59,120
synesthesia the term used to describe

713
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:01,520
this odd situation is a relatively

714
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:03,840
common condition probably due to the

715
00:30:08,310 --> 00:30:06,000
excess growth of neural connections

716
00:30:10,389 --> 00:30:08,320
between different parts of the brain

717
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:10,399
small changes in the expression of the

718
00:30:15,350 --> 00:30:13,120
genes involved in the normal wiring of

719
00:30:17,590 --> 00:30:15,360
the growing brain are probably

720
00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:17,600
responsible for this increased

721
00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:20,320
creativity and perceptive imagination

722
00:30:26,549 --> 00:30:23,520
may be the positive side of synesthesia

723
00:30:28,149 --> 00:30:26,559
however as the human brain evolved there

724
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:28,159
must be a delicate balance between

725
00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:30,080
experiencing just enough of what is

726
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:32,720
there and enriching the experience too

727
00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:33,840
much

728
00:30:37,590 --> 00:30:35,760
for survival the brain must be able to

729
00:30:39,830 --> 00:30:37,600
establish quickly

730
00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:39,840
if what is out there is similar or

731
00:30:43,350 --> 00:30:41,760
different from what has been experienced

732
00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:43,360
before

733
00:30:47,269 --> 00:30:45,440
this is an ongoing process of checking

734
00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:47,279
and comparing memory events against new

735
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:49,120
experiences the part of the brain

736
00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:50,720
involved in this delicate process is the

737
00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:53,440
hippocampus seahorse-shaped part of the

738
00:30:58,149 --> 00:30:54,960
cortex

739
00:31:00,389 --> 00:30:58,159
researchers at mit university in america

740
00:31:02,149 --> 00:31:00,399
genetically modified in mice some

741
00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:02,159
mechanism of communication between

742
00:31:06,389 --> 00:31:04,559
neurons involved in the process by which

743
00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:06,399
animals know where they are

744
00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:08,640
the result was an impairment in

745
00:31:13,190 --> 00:31:10,640
distinguishing between two similar but

746
00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:13,200
not identical environments this process

747
00:31:17,909 --> 00:31:14,880
may be the basis of the phenomenon of

748
00:31:20,230 --> 00:31:17,919
deja vu from the french already seen or

749
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:20,240
lived that is experienced by a majority

750
00:31:23,350 --> 00:31:22,320
of normal individuals in some moments of

751
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:23,360
their lives

752
00:31:27,990 --> 00:31:25,360
the sense of having seen something that

753
00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:28,000
has already been seen is a small shift

754
00:31:32,710 --> 00:31:29,679
in the ability to distinguish what is

755
00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:32,720
new and what is familiar the feeling of

756
00:31:36,470 --> 00:31:34,320
some individuals that they can predict

757
00:31:38,710 --> 00:31:36,480
the future is probably a similar small

758
00:31:41,909 --> 00:31:38,720
step further and reveals the subtle

759
00:31:43,509 --> 00:31:41,919
ongoing processes that bind us to a safe

760
00:31:45,909 --> 00:31:43,519
here and now

761
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:45,919
the mysticism about reincarnation and

762
00:31:50,549 --> 00:31:48,320
past life experiences may reflect

763
00:31:52,789 --> 00:31:50,559
similar processes

764
00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:52,799
the whole issue is that being in control

765
00:31:57,190 --> 00:31:54,880
the most ingrained feeling of being a

766
00:31:58,789 --> 00:31:57,200
self is that of being in control of our

767
00:32:01,269 --> 00:31:58,799
own actions

768
00:32:04,149 --> 00:32:01,279
awareness of moving involves predicting

769
00:32:07,430 --> 00:32:04,159
the consequences in planning movements

770
00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:07,440
using ongoing sensory information

771
00:32:11,669 --> 00:32:09,440
we are aware of the movements we intend

772
00:32:14,470 --> 00:32:11,679
to make rather than those we actually

773
00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:14,480
make we are just ahead of time

774
00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:16,960
when we move as the feedback is too slow

775
00:32:20,789 --> 00:32:18,880
to give us the appropriate awareness

776
00:32:22,870 --> 00:32:20,799
tampering with this brain process leads

777
00:32:25,909 --> 00:32:22,880
to feelings of either not being in

778
00:32:28,230 --> 00:32:25,919
control or delusions of control

779
00:32:30,549 --> 00:32:28,240
the bizarre feeling that one's hand

780
00:32:32,950 --> 00:32:30,559
takes on a mind of its own is known as

781
00:32:35,350 --> 00:32:32,960
the alien hand syndrome

782
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:35,360
this occurs in cases where a person has

783
00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:37,360
had the two hemispheres of their brain

784
00:32:41,909 --> 00:32:39,840
surgically separated a procedure

785
00:32:44,950 --> 00:32:41,919
sometimes used to relieve the symptoms

786
00:32:47,190 --> 00:32:44,960
of extreme cases of epilepsy

787
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:47,200
it also occurs in some cases after other

788
00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:49,840
brain surgery strokes or infections

789
00:32:55,029 --> 00:32:52,640
the inability to distinguish self and

790
00:32:57,430 --> 00:32:55,039
externally produced actions is reported

791
00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:57,440
by many psychiatric patients

792
00:33:02,070 --> 00:32:59,200
these probably have disorders of those

793
00:33:04,710 --> 00:33:02,080
areas of the medial motor frontal region

794
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:04,720
of the brain and parietal lobe where the

795
00:33:09,269 --> 00:33:06,880
integration of agency is built

796
00:33:11,909 --> 00:33:09,279
an alien hand feeling can be elicited in

797
00:33:14,470 --> 00:33:11,919
normal people by hypnosis and by some

798
00:33:16,549 --> 00:33:14,480
clever laboratory manipulation of visual

799
00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:16,559
and touch stimuli

800
00:33:21,269 --> 00:33:18,720
accounts of alien abductions are more

801
00:33:23,590 --> 00:33:21,279
likely to represent the extreme examples

802
00:33:25,269 --> 00:33:23,600
of such an illusion

803
00:33:27,509 --> 00:33:25,279
hearing voices as coming from other

804
00:33:29,269 --> 00:33:27,519
beings is a common hallucination in

805
00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:29,279
schizophrenic patients and is probably

806
00:33:34,310 --> 00:33:32,320
due to misattribution of inner speech

807
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:34,320
in many ancient cultures the experience

808
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:36,240
of auditory verbal hallucinations or

809
00:33:40,470 --> 00:33:38,399
hearing voices was considered a message

810
00:33:41,750 --> 00:33:40,480
from the gods or other spiritual

811
00:33:43,909 --> 00:33:41,760
entities

812
00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:43,919
a lot of popular and religious cultures

813
00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:45,840
have taken these phenomena as evidence

814
00:33:48,789 --> 00:33:47,840
of the separation of a soul from the

815
00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:48,799
body

816
00:33:53,029 --> 00:33:50,960
more natural explanations on the basis

817
00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:53,039
of neural circuits of the brain and

818
00:33:58,470 --> 00:33:55,360
their interconnections are beginning to

819
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:58,480
replace such supernatural explanations

820
00:34:02,470 --> 00:34:00,480
extraordinary experiences

821
00:34:04,950 --> 00:34:02,480
mentioned in this article and as i have

822
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:04,960
covered in these two presentations

823
00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:06,640
represent a window into the hidden

824
00:34:11,349 --> 00:34:09,200
working of the brain we as individual

825
00:34:13,510 --> 00:34:11,359
persons are made up in a continuous

826
00:34:16,230 --> 00:34:13,520
fashion by the interaction between our

827
00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:16,240
brain body and environment binding these

828
00:34:20,149 --> 00:34:18,399
different threads of experiences into

829
00:34:22,149 --> 00:34:20,159
one

830
00:34:23,669 --> 00:34:22,159
the early interest of philosophers such

831
00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:23,679
as satra

832
00:34:29,750 --> 00:34:27,200
hussein heidegger etc in the field of

833
00:34:32,069 --> 00:34:29,760
subjectivity and self-awareness begins

834
00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:32,079
to become a legitimate subject of

835
00:34:36,869 --> 00:34:35,040
investigations by neuroscientists

836
00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:36,879
it takes about half a second for neural

837
00:34:40,470 --> 00:34:38,960
activity to generate a conscious

838
00:34:43,109 --> 00:34:40,480
experience

839
00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:43,119
during this time millions of signals in

840
00:34:47,589 --> 00:34:45,280
parallel spread in the networks of

841
00:34:49,669 --> 00:34:47,599
neurons bringing together all this into

842
00:34:52,069 --> 00:34:49,679
one unified state associated with the

843
00:34:53,829 --> 00:34:52,079
strong experience of being a unified in

844
00:34:56,310 --> 00:34:53,839
controlled self is one of the most

845
00:34:59,430 --> 00:34:56,320
dramatic events in biology and one that

846
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:59,440
happens continuously in every human as a

847
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:01,440
result of ongoing interaction with our

848
00:35:06,150 --> 00:35:04,480
organism brain and body in a lifelong

849
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:06,160
dance with the environment

850
00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:09,200
however given the ease of tampering with

851
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:11,440
the self this raises all sorts of

852
00:35:15,670 --> 00:35:13,920
questions such as how can we be sure

853
00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:15,680
that we are capable of making free

854
00:35:19,829 --> 00:35:18,880
decisions are we automatons without free

855
00:35:21,589 --> 00:35:19,839
will

856
00:35:23,829 --> 00:35:21,599
the decision of the answers to such

857
00:35:25,170 --> 00:35:23,839
issues could be pursued in future

858
00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:25,180
discussions

859
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:31,750
and that's out of body out of mind part

860
00:35:38,950 --> 00:35:35,520
two from the skeptic magazine march 2010

861
00:35:40,630 --> 00:35:38,960
or volume 30 number one which you can

862
00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:40,640
download for free and that whole issue

863
00:35:44,069 --> 00:35:42,400
of the magazine and most other issues

864
00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:44,079
with the skeptic as well from our

865
00:35:50,830 --> 00:35:47,760
website skeptics.com

866
00:36:06,550 --> 00:35:50,840
happy reading

867
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:08,870
hello this is rob palmer you may have

868
00:36:11,670 --> 00:36:09,920
heard of me

869
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:11,680
lately i've been interviewing scientists

870
00:36:15,109 --> 00:36:13,440
skeptics and other critical thinkers

871
00:36:18,069 --> 00:36:15,119
from around the world for my column in

872
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:18,079
the skeptical inquirer and recently some

873
00:36:25,510 --> 00:36:23,829
my written interviews have included j

874
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:25,520
novella from the skeptic's guide to the

875
00:36:28,710 --> 00:36:26,400
universe

876
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:28,720
mass psychogenic illness expert robert

877
00:36:32,710 --> 00:36:31,440
bartholomew celestia ward from squaring

878
00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:32,720
the strange

879
00:36:38,069 --> 00:36:35,920
psychic busting private eye bob nygard

880
00:36:41,030 --> 00:36:38,079
skeptical activist michael marshall of

881
00:36:43,430 --> 00:36:41,040
the uk and even secular activists bailly

882
00:36:44,630 --> 00:36:43,440
harris and john delancey that's cue from

883
00:36:46,390 --> 00:36:44,640
star trek

884
00:36:47,829 --> 00:36:46,400
i even interviewed believe it or not a

885
00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:47,839
magic dragon

886
00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:50,320
and another really well-known skeptic

887
00:36:54,150 --> 00:36:52,000
richard saunders

888
00:36:56,710 --> 00:36:54,160
you can find my online column with these

889
00:36:58,870 --> 00:36:56,720
interviews and more by googling the

890
00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:58,880
well-known skeptic plus skeptical

891
00:37:02,310 --> 00:37:00,240
inquire

892
00:37:04,930 --> 00:37:02,320
also follow me on facebook at the

893
00:37:16,230 --> 00:37:04,940
well-known skeptic cheers

894
00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:18,900
so

895
00:37:31,390 --> 00:37:27,510
and now it's time once again to run back

896
00:37:35,030 --> 00:37:33,670
trove.nla.gov.eu the online resource

897
00:37:36,310 --> 00:37:35,040
from the australian government at the

898
00:37:38,230 --> 00:37:36,320
national library of australia

899
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:38,240
chock-a-block fall to the brim

900
00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:39,680
overflowing

901
00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:43,280
with digitised scans

902
00:37:47,670 --> 00:37:44,880
digitized scans something like that

903
00:37:49,829 --> 00:37:47,680
newspapers articles reports periodicals

904
00:37:51,910 --> 00:37:49,839
journals and so on going back decades

905
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:51,920
and decades even centuries

906
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:53,440
and this week

907
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:55,440
this week in keeping with our

908
00:38:00,230 --> 00:37:57,599
general theme of looking at skeptical

909
00:38:01,349 --> 00:38:00,240
items hardly a surprise on the skeptic

910
00:38:03,910 --> 00:38:01,359
zone

911
00:38:06,310 --> 00:38:03,920
we're going to look at references in

912
00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:06,320
australian newspaper history

913
00:38:11,430 --> 00:38:07,599
to

914
00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:14,310
[Music]

915
00:38:19,030 --> 00:38:16,720
now we often

916
00:38:20,950 --> 00:38:19,040
say here at the skeptics and other

917
00:38:23,750 --> 00:38:20,960
skeptical groups i've noticed

918
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:23,760
the initials n d

919
00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:26,880
after a naturopath stand for

920
00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:29,280
not a doctor

921
00:38:34,470 --> 00:38:31,440
and i think one of the broadest problems

922
00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:34,480
people have with the naturopaths is

923
00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:36,160
they have

924
00:38:45,190 --> 00:38:39,520
training

925
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:45,200
wildly off the rails and dives into

926
00:38:50,790 --> 00:38:48,000
unproven therapies like uridology

927
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:50,800
homeopathy reflexology

928
00:38:55,589 --> 00:38:52,400
and such like

929
00:38:59,230 --> 00:38:55,599
energy medicine things like this

930
00:39:02,470 --> 00:38:59,240
and before we go a quick look over at uh

931
00:39:04,710 --> 00:39:02,480
naturowatch which is part of quack watch

932
00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:04,720
many naturopathic theories and practices

933
00:39:08,950 --> 00:39:06,720
are not based on the body of basic

934
00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:08,960
knowledge related to health disease and

935
00:39:13,750 --> 00:39:10,880
health care which have been widely

936
00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:13,760
accepted by the scientific community

937
00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:16,640
moreover naturopathic education does not

938
00:39:20,790 --> 00:39:19,200
prepare practitioners to make adequate

939
00:39:23,670 --> 00:39:20,800
diagnoses

940
00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:23,680
and provide appropriate treatment

941
00:39:27,349 --> 00:39:25,680
this website provides information about

942
00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:27,359
naturopathy

943
00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:29,920
that is difficult or impossible to find

944
00:39:33,030 --> 00:39:31,359
elsewhere

945
00:39:35,190 --> 00:39:33,040
and one of the links there says read

946
00:39:36,470 --> 00:39:35,200
this first all right it brings us to a

947
00:39:39,670 --> 00:39:36,480
page

948
00:39:40,829 --> 00:39:39,680
by uh stephen barrett md called a close

949
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:40,839
look at

950
00:39:47,750 --> 00:39:43,839
naturopathy or naturopathy depending on

951
00:39:53,190 --> 00:39:50,630
naturopathy sometimes referred to as

952
00:39:55,990 --> 00:39:53,200
quote natural medicine and quote is a

953
00:39:57,589 --> 00:39:56,000
largely pseudoscientific approach said

954
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:57,599
to quote

955
00:40:00,470 --> 00:39:59,440
assist nature

956
00:40:03,030 --> 00:40:00,480
and

957
00:40:05,109 --> 00:40:03,040
support the body's own innate capacity

958
00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:05,119
to achieve optimal health

959
00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:07,440
and facilitate the body's

960
00:40:11,790 --> 00:40:08,640
inherent

961
00:40:15,589 --> 00:40:11,800
healing mechanisms

962
00:40:18,550 --> 00:40:15,599
naturopaths assert that diseases are the

963
00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:18,560
body's effort to purify itself

964
00:40:22,829 --> 00:40:21,040
and that cures result from increasing

965
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:22,839
the patient's

966
00:40:26,550 --> 00:40:25,040
vital force

967
00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:26,560
they claim to stimulate the body's

968
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:28,880
natural healing processes by

969
00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:32,960
ridding it of waste products and toxins

970
00:40:37,510 --> 00:40:35,040
at first glance this approach may appear

971
00:40:39,510 --> 00:40:37,520
sensible however a close look will show

972
00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:39,520
that naturopathy's

973
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:41,920
philosophy is simplistic

974
00:40:46,309 --> 00:40:45,040
and that its practices are riddled with

975
00:40:49,589 --> 00:40:46,319
quackery

976
00:40:51,190 --> 00:40:49,599
as i said before often things like uh

977
00:40:54,230 --> 00:40:51,200
iridology

978
00:40:56,790 --> 00:40:54,240
and homeopathy

979
00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:56,800
and that is a lengthy item

980
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:58,800
well worth your time to read and i'll

981
00:41:03,109 --> 00:41:01,440
link to that in this week's show notes

982
00:41:06,309 --> 00:41:03,119
and of course you may recall the story

983
00:41:08,309 --> 00:41:06,319
of britta hermes who studied as a

984
00:41:09,990 --> 00:41:08,319
naturopath until she discovered the

985
00:41:11,750 --> 00:41:10,000
glaring problems

986
00:41:14,870 --> 00:41:11,760
in the whole system

987
00:41:17,670 --> 00:41:14,880
and then was sued

988
00:41:20,309 --> 00:41:17,680
for her remarks about naturopathy

989
00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:20,319
and the skeptics some years ago came to

990
00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:22,640
her aid and she eventually won her court

991
00:41:26,390 --> 00:41:24,160
case

992
00:41:27,829 --> 00:41:26,400
but flicking back to trove now let's

993
00:41:30,390 --> 00:41:27,839
discover

994
00:41:32,069 --> 00:41:30,400
what we can find here

995
00:41:34,309 --> 00:41:32,079
let's find what we can discover let's

996
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:34,319
discover what we can find and here's a

997
00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:37,280
reference here's an item from the

998
00:41:42,069 --> 00:41:40,400
times victor harbour south australia and

999
00:41:44,069 --> 00:41:42,079
i seem to remember we've quoted from

1000
00:41:47,190 --> 00:41:44,079
this newspaper before

1001
00:41:49,589 --> 00:41:47,200
uh and this is dated the 20th of june

1002
00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:49,599
1995

1003
00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:51,680
under the banner healthy life

1004
00:41:54,870 --> 00:41:52,800
herbs

1005
00:41:57,270 --> 00:41:54,880
an alternative cure

1006
00:42:00,710 --> 00:41:57,280
sometimes even the most outstanding

1007
00:42:02,950 --> 00:42:00,720
doctors can't find a cure for your blues

1008
00:42:04,790 --> 00:42:02,960
you may have a recurring illness

1009
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:04,800
feel generally sick

1010
00:42:07,829 --> 00:42:06,000
or be

1011
00:42:10,710 --> 00:42:07,839
constantly tired

1012
00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:10,720
undiagnosed illnesses can not only be

1013
00:42:15,829 --> 00:42:13,520
frustrating but can lead to depression

1014
00:42:17,109 --> 00:42:15,839
and lack of confidence and low

1015
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:17,119
self-esteem

1016
00:42:21,589 --> 00:42:19,040
if treatments don't seem to be working

1017
00:42:23,670 --> 00:42:21,599
it may be time to try a different type

1018
00:42:26,309 --> 00:42:23,680
of therapy

1019
00:42:29,430 --> 00:42:26,319
naturopaths are becoming more and more

1020
00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:29,440
accepted by the broader community

1021
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:31,920
no longer are herbal concoctions thought

1022
00:42:37,589 --> 00:42:34,880
of as witches brews

1023
00:42:39,670 --> 00:42:37,599
even though there are still skeptics

1024
00:42:40,790 --> 00:42:39,680
a visit to the naturopath can seem bit

1025
00:42:42,470 --> 00:42:40,800
strange

1026
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:42,480
even daunting

1027
00:42:46,309 --> 00:42:44,400
you will be faced with a barrage of

1028
00:42:49,030 --> 00:42:46,319
questions about your general health

1029
00:42:51,030 --> 00:42:49,040
health history way of life and even

1030
00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:51,040
family background but all the

1031
00:42:54,790 --> 00:42:53,680
information is used to create a profile

1032
00:42:57,190 --> 00:42:54,800
of you

1033
00:43:01,030 --> 00:42:57,200
instead of the usual checkup routine and

1034
00:43:02,550 --> 00:43:01,040
naturopath looks into your eyes

1035
00:43:04,309 --> 00:43:02,560
there you go

1036
00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:04,319
looks into your eyes to get an idea

1037
00:43:09,349 --> 00:43:07,280
about the body's state of health

1038
00:43:11,750 --> 00:43:09,359
this is called iridology i swear i

1039
00:43:14,309 --> 00:43:11,760
didn't i didn't look this up before i

1040
00:43:17,270 --> 00:43:14,319
made my comments before but there you go

1041
00:43:19,750 --> 00:43:17,280
this is called iridology and involves

1042
00:43:21,589 --> 00:43:19,760
viewing the iris of the eye and gaining

1043
00:43:24,069 --> 00:43:21,599
an understanding of the person's

1044
00:43:27,190 --> 00:43:24,079
constitution what can be read from the

1045
00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:27,200
eyes can be quite amazing the naturopath

1046
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:29,040
will be able to tell you things about

1047
00:43:37,030 --> 00:43:32,000
your health which you haven't revealed

1048
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:38,790
it's quite strange to be told that you

1049
00:43:44,069 --> 00:43:40,960
get thirsty a lot or you don't get much

1050
00:43:45,750 --> 00:43:44,079
exercise from having someone look in

1051
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:45,760
your eyes

1052
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:48,480
but it does give clients a faith in

1053
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:50,400
their naturopath knowledge

1054
00:43:55,990 --> 00:43:53,280
and the prescribed treatment

1055
00:43:58,550 --> 00:43:56,000
in many cases the naturopath will mix up

1056
00:44:00,870 --> 00:43:58,560
a course of herbal medicine

1057
00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:00,880
concocted from a number of herbal

1058
00:44:06,790 --> 00:44:04,160
solutions which are combined and bottled

1059
00:44:09,349 --> 00:44:06,800
each person has their medicine made

1060
00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:09,359
just to suit them

1061
00:44:16,390 --> 00:44:12,079
it may seem that treatment isn't working

1062
00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:19,270
but it is important to persevere

1063
00:44:25,589 --> 00:44:22,160
a lifelong ailment could take months to

1064
00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:25,599
be reversed or even subdued

1065
00:44:30,309 --> 00:44:27,680
eventually the entire mind body and

1066
00:44:31,589 --> 00:44:30,319
spirit should feel the benefits of

1067
00:44:33,190 --> 00:44:31,599
natural

1068
00:44:37,190 --> 00:44:33,200
medicine

1069
00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:37,200
and the accompanying photograph of a

1070
00:44:41,589 --> 00:44:40,720
a woman holding up a bottle it appears

1071
00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:41,599
to be

1072
00:44:46,630 --> 00:44:44,480
port elliott naturopath anna mcvoy

1073
00:44:49,829 --> 00:44:46,640
can tell you plenty about your state of

1074
00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:49,839
health by looking into your eyes

1075
00:44:53,109 --> 00:44:52,079
and now we turn to the telegraph which

1076
00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:53,119
was

1077
00:45:00,870 --> 00:44:57,920
published in brisbane queensland in 1946

1078
00:45:03,910 --> 00:45:00,880
on the 14th of may

1079
00:45:06,069 --> 00:45:03,920
naturopath charged with fraud

1080
00:45:09,349 --> 00:45:06,079
allegations that john charles mcgregor

1081
00:45:11,589 --> 00:45:09,359
54 naturopath had falsely pretended to a

1082
00:45:14,069 --> 00:45:11,599
woman that he could diagnose certain

1083
00:45:15,510 --> 00:45:14,079
ills by means of an optical instrument

1084
00:45:17,670 --> 00:45:15,520
inspection

1085
00:45:19,190 --> 00:45:17,680
and that he had the ability to cure her

1086
00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:19,200
with tablets

1087
00:45:25,270 --> 00:45:22,160
were made in the criminal court today

1088
00:45:28,069 --> 00:45:25,280
mcgregor pleaded not guilty to a charge

1089
00:45:31,349 --> 00:45:28,079
of false pretenses the indictment

1090
00:45:34,230 --> 00:45:31,359
alleged that mcgregor on or about august

1091
00:45:38,710 --> 00:45:34,240
1st had obtained seven and six for a

1092
00:45:42,309 --> 00:45:38,720
bottle of tablets from helen swindles

1093
00:45:46,069 --> 00:45:42,319
and i'm not making that name up swindles

1094
00:45:49,589 --> 00:45:46,079
helen swindles with intent there by to

1095
00:45:50,550 --> 00:45:49,599
defraud and he pretended to her that he

1096
00:45:53,589 --> 00:45:50,560
could

1097
00:45:55,750 --> 00:45:53,599
diagnose certain ills from which she was

1098
00:45:59,430 --> 00:45:55,760
then suffering and

1099
00:46:02,630 --> 00:45:59,440
he had so diagnosed a bad liver and a

1100
00:46:05,510 --> 00:46:02,640
tumor behind her right eye and that he

1101
00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:05,520
had the ability to cure the ills with

1102
00:46:10,230 --> 00:46:06,560
tablets

1103
00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:10,240
the crown prosecutor mr c j cosgrove

1104
00:46:15,270 --> 00:46:12,640
said evidence would be given

1105
00:46:18,470 --> 00:46:15,280
that mcgregor had told mrs swindles that

1106
00:46:21,270 --> 00:46:18,480
her blood pressure was 190 and if it had

1107
00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:21,280
reached 235 she would suffer a stroke

1108
00:46:26,150 --> 00:46:22,240
and die

1109
00:46:29,109 --> 00:46:26,160
and that unless he dissolved the tumor

1110
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:29,119
behind her right eye she would go blind

1111
00:46:34,550 --> 00:46:31,839
he had told her that her liver was in a

1112
00:46:37,349 --> 00:46:34,560
bad condition said council

1113
00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:37,359
the hearing is before mr justice brennan

1114
00:46:42,390 --> 00:46:39,040
and the jury

1115
00:46:45,030 --> 00:46:42,400
mr rex king instructed by mesus

1116
00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:45,040
richardson carter and co appeared for

1117
00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:46,560
mcgregor

1118
00:46:50,150 --> 00:46:48,560
part heard

1119
00:46:52,150 --> 00:46:50,160
that's interesting i wonder if we can

1120
00:46:54,829 --> 00:46:52,160
follow this story up

1121
00:46:57,510 --> 00:46:54,839
and indeed i have

1122
00:47:00,150 --> 00:46:57,520
discovered what happened here

1123
00:47:04,309 --> 00:47:00,160
in the same newspaper the telegraph

1124
00:47:07,589 --> 00:47:04,319
dated the 15th of may 1946

1125
00:47:10,390 --> 00:47:07,599
naturopath not guilty of false pretenses

1126
00:47:13,109 --> 00:47:10,400
john charles mcgregor 54 naturopath was

1127
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:13,119
discharged in the criminal court today

1128
00:47:17,829 --> 00:47:15,760
after a jury found him not guilty of a

1129
00:47:20,710 --> 00:47:17,839
charge of false pretenses the jury

1130
00:47:23,829 --> 00:47:20,720
retired for only six minutes

1131
00:47:27,750 --> 00:47:23,839
summing up for the jury his honor said

1132
00:47:29,510 --> 00:47:27,760
it was a most extraordinary and

1133
00:47:31,829 --> 00:47:29,520
unfortunate case

1134
00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:31,839
which had lasted four days at the first

1135
00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:34,559
hearing and two days at the second in

1136
00:47:40,630 --> 00:47:36,960
addition to involving considerable

1137
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:40,640
expense over a man who had practiced

1138
00:47:45,990 --> 00:47:44,079
homeopathy over a number of years

1139
00:47:48,230 --> 00:47:46,000
there was a medical act which covered

1140
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:48,240
offenses of persons who practiced

1141
00:47:52,710 --> 00:47:50,720
medical treatment without possessing the

1142
00:47:55,510 --> 00:47:52,720
necessary qualifications

1143
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:55,520
and if it did not go

1144
00:47:59,030 --> 00:47:56,880
far enough

1145
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:59,040
an amendment would be introduced by

1146
00:48:02,309 --> 00:48:00,480
legislation

1147
00:48:04,470 --> 00:48:02,319
said his honor

1148
00:48:07,349 --> 00:48:04,480
it did not seem right to use the

1149
00:48:09,349 --> 00:48:07,359
criminal code against one man while so

1150
00:48:12,390 --> 00:48:09,359
many others were doing practically the

1151
00:48:15,030 --> 00:48:12,400
same thing he said

1152
00:48:17,670 --> 00:48:15,040
mcgregor had pleaded not guilty it was

1153
00:48:19,829 --> 00:48:17,680
alleged in the indictment that mcgregor

1154
00:48:22,950 --> 00:48:19,839
on or about august 1st had obtained

1155
00:48:25,910 --> 00:48:22,960
seven and six for a bottle of tablets

1156
00:48:28,950 --> 00:48:25,920
from helen swindles

1157
00:48:32,390 --> 00:48:28,960
with intent thereby to defraud and he

1158
00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:32,400
pretended to her that he could diagnose

1159
00:48:36,790 --> 00:48:35,040
certain ills from which she was then

1160
00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:36,800
suffering by means of an optical

1161
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:39,680
instrument inspection that he had

1162
00:48:44,549 --> 00:48:42,960
so diagnosed about liver and a tumor

1163
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:44,559
behind her right eye

1164
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:47,680
and he had the ability to cure the eels

1165
00:48:51,349 --> 00:48:50,240
with tablets the hearing was before mr

1166
00:48:53,990 --> 00:48:51,359
justice

1167
00:48:56,870 --> 00:48:54,000
brennan and a jury

1168
00:48:59,670 --> 00:48:56,880
so there you go he uh

1169
00:49:04,790 --> 00:49:01,990
now let's turn to the brisbane career

1170
00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:04,800
mail from 1951

1171
00:49:10,309 --> 00:49:07,040
on the 6th of april

1172
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:10,319
10 pound fine called himself quote

1173
00:49:15,190 --> 00:49:12,480
doctor end quote

1174
00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:15,200
a naturopathic practitioner

1175
00:49:19,829 --> 00:49:16,800
who has been practicing in new south

1176
00:49:21,750 --> 00:49:19,839
wales in queensland for 17 years denied

1177
00:49:23,910 --> 00:49:21,760
in the summons court yesterday that he

1178
00:49:25,430 --> 00:49:23,920
was a charlatan

1179
00:49:29,589 --> 00:49:25,440
or a quack

1180
00:49:32,150 --> 00:49:29,599
he is maurice charles hewlett blackmore

1181
00:49:34,309 --> 00:49:32,160
of empire chambers wolf street he

1182
00:49:36,390 --> 00:49:34,319
claimed his qualifications were backed

1183
00:49:37,910 --> 00:49:36,400
by certificates from overseas

1184
00:49:40,950 --> 00:49:37,920
institutions

1185
00:49:43,670 --> 00:49:40,960
blackmoore was fined 10 pounds with

1186
00:49:46,390 --> 00:49:43,680
three pounds nine costs for having

1187
00:49:47,589 --> 00:49:46,400
contravened the medical acts by using

1188
00:49:48,549 --> 00:49:47,599
the term of

1189
00:49:51,589 --> 00:49:48,559
doctor

1190
00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:51,599
mr f connolly for the medical board said

1191
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:54,000
blackmore exhibited five certificates

1192
00:49:58,870 --> 00:49:55,280
bearing the word

1193
00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:58,880
doctor in his waiting room studied

1194
00:50:02,870 --> 00:50:00,240
abroad

1195
00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:02,880
mr r h matthews said on blackmore's

1196
00:50:06,069 --> 00:50:03,920
behalf

1197
00:50:09,430 --> 00:50:06,079
that blackmore had three certificates

1198
00:50:12,630 --> 00:50:09,440
which he got in england by study

1199
00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:12,640
he studied for four years in america

1200
00:50:16,950 --> 00:50:14,800
and then did a post-graduate course at

1201
00:50:17,990 --> 00:50:16,960
the saint antonio hospital

1202
00:50:21,030 --> 00:50:18,000
the name

1203
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:21,040
doctor was on his certificates and he

1204
00:50:24,829 --> 00:50:23,440
was guilty only of a technical offense

1205
00:50:27,510 --> 00:50:24,839
mr matthews

1206
00:50:30,230 --> 00:50:27,520
contended now maurice blackmore was the

1207
00:50:32,230 --> 00:50:30,240
founder of the

1208
00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:32,240
huge pharmaceutical company here in

1209
00:50:34,710 --> 00:50:33,440
australia

1210
00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:34,720
blackmores

1211
00:50:38,470 --> 00:50:36,160
who

1212
00:50:40,549 --> 00:50:38,480
more or less concentrate on things like

1213
00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:40,559
supplements and vitamins and things like

1214
00:50:44,150 --> 00:50:41,680
that

1215
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:44,160
if i go to the blackmore's page heritage

1216
00:50:48,309 --> 00:50:46,559
and history blackmores has been an

1217
00:50:50,549 --> 00:50:48,319
industry leader in australia for more

1218
00:50:52,630 --> 00:50:50,559
than 80 years our company had its

1219
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:52,640
beginnings in the 1930s thanks to the

1220
00:50:57,270 --> 00:50:54,960
vision and passion of one man maurice

1221
00:50:58,549 --> 00:50:57,280
blackmore an english immigrant whose

1222
00:51:00,790 --> 00:50:58,559
ideas

1223
00:51:01,829 --> 00:51:00,800
about health were way ahead of their

1224
00:51:05,270 --> 00:51:01,839
time

1225
00:51:07,270 --> 00:51:05,280
maurice blackmore 1906-1977

1226
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:07,280
belief in the health giving properties

1227
00:51:12,309 --> 00:51:10,319
of herbs and minerals led him to develop

1228
00:51:14,230 --> 00:51:12,319
a whole system of health care based on

1229
00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:14,240
naturopathic principles

1230
00:51:18,870 --> 00:51:16,400
his views on natural health preventative

1231
00:51:20,549 --> 00:51:18,880
medicine and environment and recycling

1232
00:51:23,109 --> 00:51:20,559
were nothing short of radical in the

1233
00:51:25,829 --> 00:51:23,119
1930s and his work opened the doors for

1234
00:51:27,190 --> 00:51:25,839
new ways of treating ills and maximizing

1235
00:51:29,670 --> 00:51:27,200
health

1236
00:51:32,710 --> 00:51:29,680
maurice blackmore's son marcus took on

1237
00:51:34,829 --> 00:51:32,720
the reigns of the business in 1975.

1238
00:51:37,829 --> 00:51:34,839
and as i said before they are a very

1239
00:51:39,910 --> 00:51:37,839
large company and maurice blackmore pops

1240
00:51:43,030 --> 00:51:39,920
up a few years later again

1241
00:51:44,549 --> 00:51:43,040
let's see 1953 from the pages of truth

1242
00:51:47,589 --> 00:51:44,559
newspaper

1243
00:51:49,510 --> 00:51:47,599
the 6th of september and it says

1244
00:51:51,750 --> 00:51:49,520
brisbane so up in queensland i won't

1245
00:51:54,150 --> 00:51:51,760
read the whole story

1246
00:51:57,270 --> 00:51:54,160
uh it's the headline is he's got

1247
00:51:59,750 --> 00:51:57,280
certificates galore safe to pick pimples

1248
00:52:02,950 --> 00:51:59,760
says naturopath in interview

1249
00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:02,960
truth learnt this week that two more of

1250
00:52:09,190 --> 00:52:06,400
brisbane's bloodless surgeons had worked

1251
00:52:11,109 --> 00:52:09,200
with missing dolby doctor

1252
00:52:15,109 --> 00:52:11,119
alexander mayer

1253
00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:15,119
and valley naturopath claude beals

1254
00:52:19,829 --> 00:52:17,280
it's a little bit of a convoluted story

1255
00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:19,839
but i'll try to pick out some highlights

1256
00:52:24,470 --> 00:52:21,760
wet feet and cold hands

1257
00:52:27,710 --> 00:52:24,480
they are self-styled naturopaths maurice

1258
00:52:29,430 --> 00:52:27,720
c h blackmore nd

1259
00:52:32,549 --> 00:52:29,440
d-o-d-c

1260
00:52:34,950 --> 00:52:32,559
m-b-a-n london

1261
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:34,960
and alfred f kaufman

1262
00:52:40,230 --> 00:52:36,960
m a d o

1263
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:40,240
d p h d r m london

1264
00:52:43,829 --> 00:52:42,720
with empire chambers wolf street

1265
00:52:45,589 --> 00:52:43,839
brisbane

1266
00:52:47,270 --> 00:52:45,599
the story goes on about their

1267
00:52:49,750 --> 00:52:47,280
qualifications

1268
00:52:52,150 --> 00:52:49,760
and at one point says blackmore admitted

1269
00:52:54,390 --> 00:52:52,160
he had been convicted and fined for

1270
00:52:57,190 --> 00:52:54,400
using the title doctor as we read in the

1271
00:52:58,790 --> 00:52:57,200
last story it was a technical business

1272
00:53:00,950 --> 00:52:58,800
he declared

1273
00:53:02,950 --> 00:53:00,960
his certificates four of them

1274
00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:02,960
had been hanging on the wall referring

1275
00:53:07,270 --> 00:53:05,760
to him as doctor and so he was hauled to

1276
00:53:10,390 --> 00:53:07,280
court

1277
00:53:12,829 --> 00:53:10,400
and a bit later on it says

1278
00:53:15,270 --> 00:53:12,839
uh blackmore or his

1279
00:53:17,109 --> 00:53:15,280
offsiders speaking of blackmore says

1280
00:53:19,910 --> 00:53:17,119
blackmoore was a

1281
00:53:23,270 --> 00:53:19,920
doctor of philosophy france master of

1282
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:23,280
arts cambridge doctor of osteopathy

1283
00:53:27,349 --> 00:53:26,400
california doctor of reform medicine

1284
00:53:29,349 --> 00:53:27,359
london

1285
00:53:33,349 --> 00:53:29,359
doctor of naturopathy

1286
00:53:35,430 --> 00:53:33,359
doctor of osteopathy newcastle on tine

1287
00:53:37,109 --> 00:53:35,440
and fellow of the london school of

1288
00:53:39,030 --> 00:53:37,119
psychology

1289
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:39,040
and blackmore says

1290
00:53:43,270 --> 00:53:41,280
talking to the newspaper you'll find a

1291
00:53:45,990 --> 00:53:43,280
lot of well-educated persons among

1292
00:53:47,270 --> 00:53:46,000
naturopaths and osteopaths i'm a harrow

1293
00:53:49,430 --> 00:53:47,280
man myself

1294
00:53:52,069 --> 00:53:49,440
and later on in the story

1295
00:53:54,790 --> 00:53:52,079
uh blackmore told truth

1296
00:53:56,390 --> 00:53:54,800
that more than 1 000 patients a month

1297
00:53:59,829 --> 00:53:56,400
passed through his brisbane

1298
00:54:02,150 --> 00:53:59,839
and gimpy clinics and he had quote made

1299
00:54:05,510 --> 00:54:02,160
enough to retire on end quote

1300
00:54:07,910 --> 00:54:05,520
his wages bill in brisbane alone was a

1301
00:54:09,670 --> 00:54:07,920
hundred and fifty pounds a week for his

1302
00:54:12,630 --> 00:54:09,680
fifteen assistants

1303
00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:12,640
next blackmore brought to light his

1304
00:54:17,910 --> 00:54:14,880
pet enterprise

1305
00:54:20,710 --> 00:54:17,920
the naturopathic chronicle which he said

1306
00:54:23,510 --> 00:54:20,720
he published and edited and which had a

1307
00:54:26,230 --> 00:54:23,520
circulation of five thousand

1308
00:54:29,109 --> 00:54:26,240
blazing headlines left out of the four

1309
00:54:31,670 --> 00:54:29,119
copies showed truth

1310
00:54:34,309 --> 00:54:31,680
they condemned immunization

1311
00:54:36,390 --> 00:54:34,319
pasteurization surgery

1312
00:54:38,950 --> 00:54:36,400
and applauded blackmore's

1313
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:38,960
puritan and i've just looked up peritone

1314
00:54:41,750 --> 00:54:40,000
and

1315
00:54:44,950 --> 00:54:41,760
the first search that's come up is a

1316
00:54:47,990 --> 00:54:44,960
bottle of pills from blackmore's

1317
00:54:50,470 --> 00:54:48,000
that's interesting let's see what it is

1318
00:54:54,309 --> 00:54:50,480
and the bottle says supports healthy

1319
00:54:59,190 --> 00:54:57,109
and it has on the

1320
00:55:00,150 --> 00:54:59,200
the picture here of the jar the little

1321
00:55:02,630 --> 00:55:00,160
jar

1322
00:55:03,670 --> 00:55:02,640
an aust l number and i think we've

1323
00:55:04,789 --> 00:55:03,680
discussed

1324
00:55:07,589 --> 00:55:04,799
sometimes

1325
00:55:10,870 --> 00:55:07,599
in the past that here in australia

1326
00:55:13,349 --> 00:55:10,880
medicines are registered or listed

1327
00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:13,359
aust r number means registered means

1328
00:55:17,589 --> 00:55:15,119
it's gone through

1329
00:55:19,510 --> 00:55:17,599
checks to make sure it actually works

1330
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:19,520
and aust l

1331
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:20,720
listed

1332
00:55:25,030 --> 00:55:22,960
simply means it's

1333
00:55:27,030 --> 00:55:25,040
manufactured to certain standards it

1334
00:55:29,109 --> 00:55:27,040
doesn't actually

1335
00:55:31,030 --> 00:55:29,119
or not necessarily have to live up to

1336
00:55:32,390 --> 00:55:31,040
the claims it makes

1337
00:55:36,069 --> 00:55:32,400
and you'll find many things in

1338
00:55:38,150 --> 00:55:36,079
supplement and vitamin stores are listed

1339
00:55:40,390 --> 00:55:38,160
l and not registered

1340
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:40,400
the other thing that is applauded is

1341
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:42,960
renaton let's look that one up

1342
00:55:46,549 --> 00:55:44,640
and i have a

1343
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:46,559
definition

1344
00:55:51,430 --> 00:55:48,400
renaton is an antibiotic

1345
00:55:54,069 --> 00:55:51,440
that fights bacteria renaton

1346
00:55:56,150 --> 00:55:54,079
is used to treat or prevent recurring

1347
00:55:58,150 --> 00:55:56,160
bladder infections in adults and

1348
00:55:59,910 --> 00:55:58,160
children okay

1349
00:56:02,549 --> 00:55:59,920
and the next one listed as membrane tone

1350
00:56:03,910 --> 00:56:02,559
let's see what that is member turned by

1351
00:56:06,069 --> 00:56:03,920
blackmores

1352
00:56:08,230 --> 00:56:06,079
and all i can find here that the name

1353
00:56:09,670 --> 00:56:08,240
has been apparently trademarked but i

1354
00:56:11,589 --> 00:56:09,680
can't see any products at the moment

1355
00:56:13,190 --> 00:56:11,599
that have that but the name apparently

1356
00:56:15,030 --> 00:56:13,200
has been trademarked by blackmore

1357
00:56:16,470 --> 00:56:15,040
sometime in the past

1358
00:56:22,069 --> 00:56:16,480
hepatone

1359
00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:22,079
liver refresh liver and gallbladder

1360
00:56:27,190 --> 00:56:24,880
liver detox from various companies

1361
00:56:28,549 --> 00:56:27,200
so it's that sort of uh that sort of

1362
00:56:30,950 --> 00:56:28,559
thing

1363
00:56:34,230 --> 00:56:30,960
the next one says pep ups

1364
00:56:38,390 --> 00:56:34,240
pep ups and the next one says fluvax

1365
00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:38,400
which is spelled f l u v a c s so i'm

1366
00:56:44,870 --> 00:56:40,960
not exactly sure what that is

1367
00:56:46,630 --> 00:56:44,880
because nothing comes up when i do a

1368
00:56:48,950 --> 00:56:46,640
search

1369
00:56:50,390 --> 00:56:48,960
specifically for that apart from flu

1370
00:56:52,390 --> 00:56:50,400
vaccination

1371
00:56:55,030 --> 00:56:52,400
and indeed a

1372
00:56:58,549 --> 00:56:55,040
return on flu the word itself actually

1373
00:57:00,390 --> 00:56:58,559
does come up with one which is um

1374
00:57:01,910 --> 00:57:00,400
this website is for u.s animal health

1375
00:57:04,710 --> 00:57:01,920
care professionals

1376
00:57:06,549 --> 00:57:04,720
right i'm not sure what's going on there

1377
00:57:08,069 --> 00:57:06,559
and just picking through the story again

1378
00:57:09,990 --> 00:57:08,079
i'm sorry this part is a little bit

1379
00:57:13,030 --> 00:57:10,000
disjointed but uh i'm picking out some

1380
00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:13,040
of the more interesting bits truth asked

1381
00:57:17,510 --> 00:57:14,640
blackmore why the medical profession

1382
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:17,520
regarded naturopaths as quacks

1383
00:57:22,950 --> 00:57:19,760
and blackmore is saying here

1384
00:57:25,670 --> 00:57:22,960
just jealousy they don't like us because

1385
00:57:26,390 --> 00:57:25,680
we're the only people with scientific

1386
00:57:28,789 --> 00:57:26,400
knowledge

1387
00:57:31,349 --> 00:57:28,799
to expose them

1388
00:57:34,150 --> 00:57:31,359
and then blackmore says you know what

1389
00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:34,160
doctors shut their eyes to our successes

1390
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:37,280
i've had such cases of brights disease

1391
00:57:42,789 --> 00:57:39,920
here given three days to live by a

1392
00:57:44,549 --> 00:57:42,799
doctor i've treated them and today

1393
00:57:46,950 --> 00:57:44,559
they're out working

1394
00:57:49,510 --> 00:57:46,960
and then truth magazine says we doubt if

1395
00:57:52,710 --> 00:57:49,520
the medical profession would accept that

1396
00:57:54,390 --> 00:57:52,720
and blackmore says i challenge them to

1397
00:57:56,789 --> 00:57:54,400
any doctor or

1398
00:57:58,950 --> 00:57:56,799
for that matter the whole board can come

1399
00:58:01,990 --> 00:57:58,960
into this clinic for a week and be

1400
00:58:04,309 --> 00:58:02,000
instructed in our methods i'll bet they

1401
00:58:06,549 --> 00:58:04,319
don't remain unconvinced

1402
00:58:07,910 --> 00:58:06,559
so there you go and again i'm sorry this

1403
00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:07,920
story is a little bit disjointed but

1404
00:58:11,190 --> 00:58:09,599
there's a lot of waffling to do with

1405
00:58:12,950 --> 00:58:11,200
other cases and things but i just wanted

1406
00:58:15,430 --> 00:58:12,960
to get to some of the

1407
00:58:23,030 --> 00:58:15,440
ah the more interesting bits concerning

1408
00:58:28,150 --> 00:58:25,030
so there we go a little look back into

1409
00:58:30,230 --> 00:58:28,160
the archives there peeking through

1410
00:58:32,390 --> 00:58:30,240
various uh results concerning

1411
00:58:34,390 --> 00:58:32,400
naturopaths and in particular

1412
00:58:35,750 --> 00:58:34,400
maurice blackmore

1413
00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:35,760
now that latest one about maurice

1414
00:58:39,589 --> 00:58:37,760
blackmore i might pass that along

1415
00:58:41,430 --> 00:58:39,599
that clipping i might pass that along to

1416
00:58:43,109 --> 00:58:41,440
some of my friends

1417
00:58:44,230 --> 00:58:43,119
who i'm sure will find that very

1418
00:58:48,150 --> 00:58:44,240
interesting

1419
00:58:49,829 --> 00:58:48,160
but even as far back as 1953

1420
00:58:52,390 --> 00:58:49,839
blackmoore and naturopaths were

1421
00:58:53,670 --> 00:58:52,400
condemning immunization pasteurization

1422
00:58:56,710 --> 00:58:53,680
surgery

1423
00:58:58,470 --> 00:58:56,720
but applauding uh these various uh

1424
00:59:00,549 --> 00:58:58,480
supplements

1425
00:59:02,390 --> 00:59:00,559
and you too can applaud all sorts of

1426
00:59:05,069 --> 00:59:02,400
interesting things if you look into the

1427
00:59:07,670 --> 00:59:05,079
trove archives at

1428
00:59:09,270 --> 00:59:07,680
trove.nla.gov dot a u it's very easy to

1429
00:59:10,710 --> 00:59:09,280
use you simply type in what you want to

1430
00:59:13,109 --> 00:59:10,720
have look for

1431
00:59:15,349 --> 00:59:13,119
up comes the search results and you can

1432
00:59:18,230 --> 00:59:15,359
select whether you want to see

1433
00:59:19,990 --> 00:59:18,240
the results in newspapers and journals

1434
00:59:22,549 --> 00:59:20,000
or in magazines

1435
00:59:23,750 --> 00:59:22,559
or other references

1436
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:23,760
and like me

1437
00:59:29,210 --> 00:59:44,470
[Music]

1438
00:59:47,430 --> 00:59:45,990
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1439
00:59:49,109 --> 00:59:47,440
zone podcast

1440
00:59:50,390 --> 00:59:49,119
and thank you to henrietta and maud the

1441
00:59:53,109 --> 00:59:50,400
cat

1442
00:59:55,670 --> 00:59:53,119
oh she's back hello

1443
00:59:57,589 --> 00:59:55,680
come on you want to come in come on

1444
00:59:59,109 --> 00:59:57,599
meow

1445
01:00:01,510 --> 00:59:59,119
you might be able to hear a very quiet

1446
01:00:03,030 --> 01:00:01,520
meow there

1447
01:00:05,430 --> 01:00:03,040
sometimes i think they really are the

1448
01:00:07,589 --> 01:00:05,440
executive producers of this show

1449
01:00:10,309 --> 01:00:07,599
but thank you to the people who

1450
01:00:13,190 --> 01:00:10,319
really do help the show the patreon and

1451
01:00:15,670 --> 01:00:13,200
paypal supporters at skepticzone.tv

1452
01:00:16,950 --> 01:00:15,680
without your contributions these cats

1453
01:00:18,789 --> 01:00:16,960
would starve

1454
01:00:20,309 --> 01:00:18,799
quick get the violins out now i think

1455
01:00:22,950 --> 01:00:20,319
that'd be all right but the show

1456
01:00:24,789 --> 01:00:22,960
wouldn't continue so i do appreciate

1457
01:00:26,870 --> 01:00:24,799
everyone who chips in

1458
01:00:29,430 --> 01:00:26,880
weekly or monthly to the skeptic zone to

1459
01:00:31,670 --> 01:00:29,440
keep the show going thank you very much

1460
01:00:34,230 --> 01:00:31,680
now if you do go to skepticzone.tv

1461
01:00:36,390 --> 01:00:34,240
scroll to the top of the page

1462
01:00:37,670 --> 01:00:36,400
or look at the top of the page if you go

1463
01:00:38,710 --> 01:00:37,680
there you probably are at the top of the

1464
01:00:40,950 --> 01:00:38,720
page

1465
01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:40,960
and you'll see a link to tick-tock the

1466
01:00:45,750 --> 01:00:43,440
skeptic zone is on tick tock and my

1467
01:00:48,150 --> 01:00:45,760
latest tick tock video

1468
01:00:49,589 --> 01:00:48,160
all about spoon bending sort of went a

1469
01:00:51,430 --> 01:00:49,599
little bit viral

1470
01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:51,440
and had thousands of hits in a very

1471
01:00:55,510 --> 01:00:53,440
short time i don't know why i've got

1472
01:00:58,950 --> 01:00:55,520
lots of videos up there about

1473
01:01:00,789 --> 01:00:58,960
uh word salad spirit boxes detox ancient

1474
01:01:03,510 --> 01:01:00,799
aliens psychic readings astrology

1475
01:01:07,109 --> 01:01:03,520
homeopathy cryptids crop circles reiki

1476
01:01:09,109 --> 01:01:07,119
chakras acupuncture divining

1477
01:01:11,910 --> 01:01:09,119
hot reading cold reading

1478
01:01:14,230 --> 01:01:11,920
and birds out the window

1479
01:01:15,910 --> 01:01:14,240
there are birds out the window henrietta

1480
01:01:17,030 --> 01:01:15,920
maude where are you go and chase the

1481
01:01:18,630 --> 01:01:17,040
birds away

1482
01:01:20,309 --> 01:01:18,640
have a look at those tick tock videos

1483
01:01:23,270 --> 01:01:20,319
you might enjoy them they're very short

1484
01:01:26,150 --> 01:01:23,280
it's under a series called mystic minute

1485
01:01:28,309 --> 01:01:26,160
so most of those videos are a minute or

1486
01:01:31,190 --> 01:01:28,319
or not even quite a minute

1487
01:01:32,870 --> 01:01:31,200
and so for this week this is richard

1488
01:01:38,789 --> 01:01:32,880
saunders signing off

1489
01:01:42,069 --> 01:01:40,630
you've been listening to the skeptic

1490
01:01:43,430 --> 01:01:42,079
zone podcast

1491
01:01:46,630 --> 01:01:43,440
please visit our website at

1492
01:01:52,230 --> 01:01:49,750
for show notes contacts and to access

1493
01:01:54,470 --> 01:01:52,240
the back catalog of episodes going back

1494
01:01:56,390 --> 01:01:54,480
to 2008

1495
01:01:59,109 --> 01:01:56,400
you can follow the skeptic zone podcast

1496
01:02:01,270 --> 01:01:59,119
on twitter at skepticzone

1497
01:02:03,589 --> 01:02:01,280
visit our facebook page or leave a

1498
01:02:05,670 --> 01:02:03,599
review on itunes

1499
01:02:08,870 --> 01:02:05,680
you can also support the skeptic zone

1500
01:02:12,230 --> 01:02:08,880
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

1501
01:02:13,829 --> 01:02:12,240
podcast is an independent production the

1502
01:02:16,150 --> 01:02:13,839
views and opinions expressed on the

1503
01:02:18,710 --> 01:02:16,160
skeptic zone are not necessarily those

1504
01:02:20,330 --> 01:02:18,720
of australian skeptics or any other